Follow

We should make even more political, queer and feminist than to drive those bro's away, that make it partly unsafe for people like me and minorities. I won't say make it less technical but get all kinds of people in that don't feel safe to attend yet. Flash news: feminist women can be hackers as well, we're not decoration or there for men's annoyance.

@AzureKingfisher After I have heard that the congress got less technical I have checked the fahrplan and compared it to berlin's talks.

While it is true that there's a higher amount of less technical and more political talks, there are also twice as much talks going on now. So the percentage should be about the same or increased slightly.

I am getting tired of the vulnerability muppetshow with live demo that has become the norm. I would appreciate more deeply technical defense talks. Zero days can be shown all the time, what's interesting is their impact, the overall setting and how society deals with them.

And less political? Assange has presented wikileaks in Berlin, bug-the-planet has got a talk at 28c3 and there have been many others before. So this has always been a political event.

That it is more clearly positioned against Nazis and types of exclusive and harmful behavior is good and the current congress has shown that people happily take the opportunity and build their event upon that.

There's always room for more of that. I have never considered Trolls a desirable part of anything. Good riddance then.

Seeing more feminist* hackers is awesome, there's so much to learn from them for me. Given that they have been underrepresented in the past it is pleasing for me to see more and more feminist*s speak up and find a stage. I'll happily listen to anything you have to tell, so please keep that going.

And we can offer introductory workshops for non-hacking partners and families while they are here - for any gender. The ratio of female : male humans in the kids space has been a bit off balance... But that's a different story.

@ckeen @AzureKingfisher “unpolitisch” (apolitical) has been an euphemism for open support for fascist ideology for more than a century now. People who demand apolitical spaces typically want to fill them with their own white supremacist ideology (which they perceive as not political).

@tonnerre @AzureKingfisher Or it is a red herring that should dilude the fact that there actually *is* a political agenda.

I agree with you here.

@ckeen

@AzureKingfisher

After the "Feminsist perspectives" talk a lot of people were honestly asking why women dont like male-dominated basements. I see how this could not be easy to understand and I think the next Congress should have a whole Feminist track.

With talks explaining why woman dont like basements. How the total lack of support / welcoming can be seen as hostile.

Someone would need to do the emotional work of explaining that, but its worth it.

@ckeen @AzureKingfisher

I was asked to stop any activism and public projects in Warsaw because the hackers there claimed they feel unsafe with me inviting women. With a female programmer they cannot joke about boobs and fucking. Women want the space to be clean. Theyre aliens.

I think a lot of CCC spaces work in a similar way. Think that a technocracy they have is objective and doesnt discriminate anyone. And girls arent just good enough to join.

@ckeen @AzureKingfisher

Ive seen a lot of feminist women being discriminated in hackerspaces because they werent "a cultural fit", as Riot Games management would put it.

Because educational games for schools arent a hackerspace thing. Nor a phd in computational biology. Or an investigative data journalism.

Often Spaces find a single woman that can tolerate their culture and use it as "look were not sexist".

@ckeen @AzureKingfisher

Multiple Spaces tolerate women only as mascots, passing guests, but once one of them claims to be competent, suddenly they meet with all the hostility and attempts to prove theyre not good enough. Or the languages they use suck.

We need to talk about it at the Congress and explain people that you can discriminate in a lot of ways. Outright ban is just one of them.

@alxd @AzureKingfisher

On the language sides there *have* been talks in the past by @astefanowitsch for example on sexist usage of language and how it makes women disappear. In German though.
@alxd @AzureKingfisher

Yes to all of that. It happens. It's sad. And honestly I think we could live without such spaces. They just perpetuate a story of suppression. This must change.

And for a start a small group at our space has decided to just not listen to these voices for now and do our thing anyway.

In the hope that people opposing that idea either adapt or will leave as that's a negative contribution that's not worth having or maintaining.

If that fails we will need to regroup and rethink. I cannot speak for the group here.
@alxd @AzureKingfisher

Or the 'be excellent to each other' is enough and there really is no problem - Argument. Yes, CCC spaces are not exempt for this nor more open in general. It is a constant struggle where humans need to reinvent their community continuously.

And people opposing opening up their spaces to others need to endure the questioning why. What does it say about you, as a human, when you oppose others who want to make spaces more welcoming and open?
@alxd @AzureKingfisher @ckeen The people complaining that they can't make boob jokes anymore are not real hackers.
@bob @alxd @AzureKingfisher

I think you still can make jokes about boobs without devaluing any human...

The best comedians and jokes are the ones that work without intimidating anyone.
@alxd @AzureKingfisher

Depends on whether there are enough people with loads of energy to do the explaining.

AFAICS groups like the Haecksen have been busy building their own village and there have been workshops, but of course targeted to *their* needs and desires.

F.U.C.K. had an assembly and workshop and have been very helpful to explain how to make our hack space more welcoming and inclusive.

I think we just need to spread the word better. There are plenty of resources and if you ask nicely at the right place and time you might get more support...

@ckeen

@AzureKingfisher

I can volunteer to have a talk on Feminism in hackerspaces, or at least about the female hackers / engineers / technicians in culture and literature.

A lot of hackers worship the nerdy Dresden Codak, not seeing that the webcomic author outrightly fetishizes his female protagonist. We need to talk about womens agency in culture and in Spaces.

@alxd

That's all true. Explaining feminism as a man to other men feels weird for me though. And from the 'feminist perspective' talk it's clear that women are growing tired of doing it on demand...

I have no solution atm...

@AzureKingfisher

@ckeen @alxd the men needing to learn about feminism don't listen to women. We tried for years. I'm so fucking tired. They need to learn it from other men, preferably throwing them out when they continue to misbehave.

@ckeen

@AzureKingfisher

Well, we can split the work. I spent hours explaining the feminist perspective this last Congress.

I know I put two years of research in the topic of women-in-tech in culture. I can submit my slides and even record a presentation beforehand so that everyone is sure I wont ridicule the topic.

I think 50/50 gender ratio among speakers on feminism could drive the point even better: we can all be feminist.

@ckeen
But that's what we need to do. We need to step up and tell others that their sexist jokes are sexist and not funny. We need to keep our fellow hackers in line and show them that we don't tolerate their sexist/racist/..ist bullshit. We need to create a welcoming space only then will the minorities that are right now missing truly join our Spaces. (This is not only true for hackspace but also for other parts of society)

@strypey @ckeen @alxd genderless wouldn't be a concept those men would accept. As we've learned at , machines are feminine after all.

@ckeen @strypey @alxd I just watched the artistic PCB talk and what she does is awesome. <3

@ckeen I really liked
media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9370-hacki it's about finding open source ways of healing lazy eye. It's interesting, he's a good speaker and it could be helpful to people with that problem.

@ckeen @strypey @alxd the smartphone talk was great as well. I met bücherratten the day before her talk and could inspect her great phone. She really wanted me to come and watch but we ended up waiting for our food for too long.

@ckeen @strypey @alxd actually I watched it to see what everybody meant with the sexist introduction from the herold.

@AzureKingfisher @alxd @strypey Oh, do I need to rewatch this? I skipped it because the first sentences where so cringey

@ckeen @strypey @alxd it's what he said as well, e.g. pointing out "it's she, in this case".

Forgive me, I seem to have stumbled into the wrong room. Please untag me? Thanks ;-)
@AzureKingfisher @ckeen @alxd

@ckeen nah, my bad. I stuck my head into your conversation with a random shiptoast, and ending up cc'd into the rest of the conversation was classic #InstantKarma ;-P

@ckeen @AzureKingfisher but this year sees a significant shift, especially in the relative acceptance rate!

I'm still sceptical, because I don't trust a lot the actions to be genuine, but even if not, the numbers kinda work on their own to some degree ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@tethre @ckeen @AzureKingfisher hrm, were there really only male and female speakers, or is this a cissexist statistic?

@tonnerre @tethre @ckeen I'm not sure. Did they ask them for their gender identity and pronouns?

@AzureKingfisher @tonnerre @ckeen at least this year they distinguished male, female, and non-binary/groups/organizations. for the past i think it is only the number of people who could be identified with somewhat reasonable confidence as women. so, yeah, there is skew in the data, but it's still meaningful i'd say 🤷

@ludger there was a lightning talk from the haecksen on day two (?) about how to be an ally.

@AzureKingfisher

Yeah, we need the presence of queer and feminist people, but these people can't afford to come here.

Sign in to participate in the conversation
Mastodonten.de

mastodonten.de ist eine Mastodon Instanz offen für alle netten Leute (über 16). Geht gut miteinander um (und lest die Regeln wenn ihr euch nicht sicher seid, was das heißt). Wer möchte, kann auch gerne etwas spenden, um den Betrieb von mastodonten.de zu unterstützen.

mastodonten.de is a Mastodon instance open to nice people (over 16). Be excellent to each other (and read the rules if you're not sure what that means). Who would like, can donate something, in order to support the operation of mastodonten.de.